Ever get the feeling you've been cheated?

[hirez]

This television business (and by extension, the notion of 'fame' and people's curious reaction thereto.) is an odd one and no mistake. A set of bods roughing it mostly live on camera in Australia seems to have polarised opinion thusly:

a) Lydon! Hurrah! Sound fellow!

b) Lydon! Fucken sellout maan! Z-List-no-mark has-been!

Those taking the (b) option have me confused. When, precisely, did the chap 'sell out'? First paying gig? Signing to EMI? Appearing on 'So it goes'? Signing to the filthy hippies at Virgin? Appearing on Top of the pops? The US tour? The full-colour photograph in the Christmas Radio Times as 'Prince Disgusting'? PiL? Using a bunch of expensive sessioneers to record/tour 'Album'? Judge Judy? The talk-radio show? The VH1 (or was it MTV?) programmes?

I suspect the answer is "Your favourite artist 'sells out' when they do something you're not comfortable with."

And who the hell has enough of an ego to consider that someone who makes records you like shouldn't do anything to make you feel uncomfortable?

"But what about punk rock?"

What about it? The Stalinist idiots over at MRR bang on about that sort of thing. They get really stroppy if some band or other dares to rise above some arbitrary value of subsistence living and actually manages to eat regularly and buy fresh socks. For my sins, I know a few people in bands, and I want the buggers rolling in money. If only so I can ponce beer and backstage access... As was explained to me recently, the most important thing to remember is get paid. Words like 'integrity' are for those with private incomes or Journos who're on salary and doing the R&R-thing vicariously through whoever they've been told to hype this week.

Which reminds me: Punk was (among other things) about DIY. You don't buy rebellion from Camden Market or Hot Topic, you buy conformity. No matter how much money you wave, no-one else is going to do your rebelling, least of all some 40-something bloke in the jungle.

Comments

[juliann.livejournal.com]

The author of the book I'm making the game about was one of those salaried journos during the punk era (NME and Rolling Stone, while he was more of a glam man himself).

[lproven.livejournal.com]

[Applause]

[hirez.livejournal.com]

Thank you. It's a little disjointed, but gets the point across I think.

Re:

[lproven.livejournal.com]

De rien.

And yes, it does.

[the-siobhan.livejournal.com]

Sir, you deserve a pint from me, just for that rant.

[serpentstar.livejournal.com]

The same attitude pervades every niche market -- I suspect there's a Socio-Economics PhD dissertation waiting to be written there somewhere.

When I made a living running a pagan bookshop, I encountered it from people who thought that all pagans should make a decent living as corporate computer programmers rather than sponging off the pagan community by running a bookshop, and that most importantly the books they want should be given away for free.

Now, I make a living writing roleplaying games, and I get the same attitude from people who feel one should be in this business for love, not money, and that most importantly the books they want should be given away for free.

Note that this attitude rarely came from the actual average punter-on-the-street; it was from hard-core aficionados of the scene, people who one might think had 'paid their dues'. Often it was people who, in point of fact, would love to have been as cool as me and thus able to make a living from their beloved 'community', but weren't quite clever enough, or indeed prepared to take the lifestyle 'cut' required to make a living in a niche industry.

I suspect most musos are the same. I really hope Lydon is making a decent living; he was a key member of two crucial, epoch-makingly revolutionary bands, and that's two more than most musicians ever see a hint of. But despite people's assumptions about the EMI-derived wealth of the pistols -- done in darn the boozer -- there's no doubt that Lydon, like any other artist with even a smattering of integrity, has starved at one time or another. You must have read Rollins's top-notch autobiography, _Get In The Van_ -- I can't imagine that Lydon's life was so far removed.

[hirez.livejournal.com]

Note that this attitude rarely came from the actual average punter-on-the-street

I wonder if it's the expectation of peer-recognition?

(I need to think about that. Largely because it throws some of my own motives and behaviours into sharp relief.)

[sushidog.livejournal.com]

I encountered it from people who thought that all pagans should make a decent living as corporate computer programmers rather than sponging off the pagan community by running a bookshop,
Would they have preferred to buy their books and supplies from a corporate business type with no understanding of the community?

[serpentstar.livejournal.com]

I really have no idea! Possibly... that way they wouldn't feel they were being 'ripped off' by one of their own. They wouldn't expect the businessperson to be willing to give stuff away for free or with a heavy discount.

Re:

[jarkman.livejournal.com]

To run a business, you have to explicitly separate your best interests from the interests of the group. You have to demand money, for yourself and the business.

So they can no longer imagine you as one of a band of equals, all equally devoted to the same cause. You've stepped outside of the communitarian fantasy by drawing your own boundaries.

I think.

[serpentstar.livejournal.com]

I think you've hit the nail on the head there. Where someone runs a website or fanzine, they're perceived to be supporting the community; if they give up their job for (say) a transnational conglomerate to turn their website or fanzine into a business, they've suddenly "sold out"!

There is a slight difference between that and music though I suppose. As so many musicians have said, and as seems to be my own experience with regard to the few full-time bands I know, you can't make a living as a musician unless it's the *only* thing you're capable of a living at. A tiny number of notable exceptions exist, but few people who can do another job will ever have the drive to make it as a musician -- I know I wouldn't.

Re:

[jarkman.livejournal.com]

Yes. But maybe the same boundary is there for music - when you're starving, you're patently doing it for the love of it.

When you're not starving, you *might* be doing it for love, but nobody can tell. You might be doing it for self-interest.

[serpentstar.livejournal.com]

Yeah, if you're not starving, you're caught between a rock and a hard place; if what you do is perceived by the "true fans" as more commercially viable than what you used to do, you've "sold out," whereas if what you do is perceived as different to what you used to do but no more commercially viable, you've become "self-indulgent" and "aren't in touch with the kids any more!"

Re:

[reddragdiva]

OTOH, there's record shops. It's easier to love your neighbourhood crack dealer when you know they cram those 7" singles into their arm veins straight off the tree themselves.

[glitchdrei.livejournal.com]

The only issue I have with him being on TV is the same one I have with Peter Andre, Jordan etc - None of them [Even Lydon] seem to have anything interesting to say for themselves, yet they're getting paid lots to sit on an island, and there are millions of people wasting time and electricity watching it.

[aeia.livejournal.com]

Yeah something like £50k.. give me 3k and I'd do it.. or for nothing.. would love to see the jungle!

[glitchdrei.livejournal.com]

Even if you ended up in jail afterwards, having killed Jordan and Peter Andre for both being completely brainless and wastes of carbon? ;)

[quercus.livejournal.com]

How much to have you sit in a glass box while we hurl cockroaches at you ? 8-)

[codepope.livejournal.com]

Spot on there. Lydon! Hurrah! Sound Fellow!

[ex-wendles389.livejournal.com]

I have next to no idea what's going on with the telly but...

No matter how much money you wave, no-one else is going to do your rebelling, least of all some 40-something bloke in the jungle.

I laughed at this bit. Lots :)

Thank you kindly A&M

[quercus.livejournal.com]

Lydon sold out the moment anyone offered a decent wedge. The whole "Lydon ethos" is to sell anything that's not nailed down, as soon as you get a decent offer. Then to take the money off to the pub, laughing at the poor sap who gave it to you.

You can't be ridiculed as "selling out", when you treat every moment as a marketing exercise.

[naughtypixie.livejournal.com]

Working in the magazine industry makes you delightfully jaded to this sort of malarky. Firstly, everyone sells out. In my many years working in this industry i've never heard a single tale of a person who would avoid doing a magazine shoot/telling all about "that event"/or getting their respective genetalia out when offered obscene wads of cash despite any moral stands they would previously have had. Personally, i'd do the same but the offers in my direction seem to be somewhat lacking.

The ones who have my admiration are the ones who take the cash, get their respective tits out, and then turn it into something which actually advances their respective moral or social stand while being paid for the priviledge. I'd give you examples but I seem to be lacking in aspects of long term memory after a work do last night so you'll either have to believe me or actually do the remembering for yourself (which i'm sure you're capable of though I have no confidence in general LJ readership... thank god for exceptions is all I can say to this though).

As for the DIY punk, I should note that the concept of "rebellion" these days is NOT following the holy pages of Cosmopolitan in ones dress sense. I can see the shock in your eyes but believe me that people actually dare to do it. And be deeply disturbed that there is currently several "action groups" who are "studying the feasability of incorperating an 'alternative' style magazine into the current youth portfolio to increase the market share". And if that didn't scare the willies out of you... consider that i've actually used a similar statement once at a meeting recently.

[reddragdiva]

Magazines of that type are started roughly annually, aren't they?

Maybe they could buy Alternative London and get a proofreader.

Re:

[naughtypixie.livejournal.com]

In a mild way, though usually it's a few dodgy sorts trying to make a quick buck by thrashing the thing out on some macs in their camden apartment and sending to the local "fuck the environment, just print my mag as cheaply as possible" printers.

What i'm speaking of is the disconcerting approach of brand extentions of mainstream titles into the alternatives, and their seriously aquiring advertising budgets based on the increasing "alternative" demographic and all that malarky... can we say Cosmo Goth anyone?

Re:

[reddragdiva]

The peak of this malarkey was 1993-94, in the era of "grunge." No further attempts will surprise me in any way. Really. I provided research material for TV shows on "zines". Trust me.

_nicolai_ suggested to me (in casual conversation) that despite annual attempts, which serve to fill our wardrobes in the disposal sales six months later, the fashion world will never eat goth until they convince the rich that a ridiculously elaborate five-kilogram boot is fashionable. They always get the boots wrong - the fashion consumers consistently go for light footwear or, if it's a heavy boot, something sleek that tries to be unobtrusive. We're safe until Jade Jagger completes the pseudo-goth outfit with New Rocks.

(At which point I'm sure we'd cope anyway.)

Re: boots

[maluse.livejournal.com]

What about Mel B wearing New Rocks (http://www.iht.com/IHT/SR/101698/sr101698m.html)? Or were we just fortunate that this didn't coincide with one of the periods when goth was "fashionable"?

[ramtops.livejournal.com]

excellent post. Although I'd rather stick pins in my eyes than watch Celebrity TV, so I won't be seeing Mr Lydon anyway.

[latexiron.livejournal.com]

Mmmm... fresh socks.

I wish I had fresh socks, that matched.

[steer.livejournal.com]

Those taking the (b) option have me confused. When, precisely, did the chap 'sell out'?

Wellllll, for most artistes it's kind of a gradual thing isn't it? But for Lydon you could probably pinpoint the one song then "ever had the feeling you've been conned" gig as the moment if you were forced to pick the exact moment of someone selling out.

I sort of like him myself.

[metallikat.livejournal.com]

I don't blame him for doing it, after all, man can't live on fandom alone. I just have an enormous dislike of the man from reading his autobiography (assuming he was being truthful and not trying to peruade us that he was a wazzock that didn't actually exist) where he claimed to be the inventor of such things as long hair and hair dye.

[mr-tails.livejournal.com]

Punk was (among other things) about DIY. You don't buy rebellion from Camden Market or Hot Topic, you buy conformity.

This reminds me of an event that happened last week at the Market. Some young lasses were looking at some wristbands with the anarchy symbol in Chunky's shop (Altered Statez). They were debating buying a friend a present. Overheard in the debate was 'what about the one with the Accupuncture symbol'.

{sigh}

The youth of today. Are we truly lost?

Selling out. That's just going against principles you set out with - more often than not, the media and folk in general make these up. I don't remember any strict policy document for Jonny and his crew.

Re:

[hirez.livejournal.com]

Malcom McLaren would have us believe it was 'Cash from chaos'...

[(Anonymous)]

Now there's a teaser line for instant LJ self-destruction...

Re:

[mr-tails.livejournal.com]

Aye .. he always was an annoying nobhead.

[mr-tom.livejournal.com]

People who don't sell out as soon a humanely possible confuse me almost as much as those that keep selling out when they don't need to.

Sell out fast, and retire on the proceeds: KLF
Keep on dragging out the same old dross: Mick Jagger

I mean, given the choice, I'd take the cash and run any day. (Does this make me a bad person, or just a product of the society in which I live?) ;-)

Hmmmmm....

[lazrus-armagedn.livejournal.com]

As usual, by the time I'd finished writing my response, it was too long to be anything than an actual entry on my LJ ... So, you'll find what I think about this whole issue here (http://www.livejournal.com/users/lazrus_armagedn/168272.html)

Confused?

[sarah-mum.livejournal.com]

OK, So I nailed my colours to mast *B* with yesterday's little post, but maybe 'sellout' was the wrong word.
I'm sort of disappointed that someone who has (or at least had) a certain iconic status is happy to accept as his peers a group of yes "Z-list nobodies".

Totally agree with you on 'off the peg individuality' and 'rebelion on a box' though. But you knew that already.

Re: Confused? Don't you know who I am?

[hirez.livejournal.com]

Butbutbut...

Surely not mixing with people because they 'weren't famous enough' would be the true mark of the up-their-own-arse has-been?

(This is where I have my 'Won't be doing with hanging around stage doors, hoping to have my existance validated by some coke-addled twat of a rock-star' rant. I've (usually) paid my way in. I expect them to come to me and thank me for validating their dog-and-pony show.)

Re: Confused?

[redcountess]

But isn't it possible he's doing it to be ironic?

Re: Confused?

[lazrus-armagedn.livejournal.com]

I don't buy that whole 'irony' thing ... If that's the best he can find to do in the post-modernist vein then it's really very sad indeed that he hasn't realised that it's been done so many times already that irony isn't even yawn-inducingly passe ... it's just yawn-inducing

I can buy irony for a fiver down my local Blockbuster ... It's on Sale

[redcountess]

*Pint*!

The only thing that gets my goat about J.Lydon participating is the show itself, and that everybody persists in referring to him as Johnny Rotten even though he left the Pistols 25 years ago!!