Four legs good, but no legs best.

[hirez]

You're coming in halfway though a conversation. GWB re-enacting old Gang Of Four records (He'd send in the army) has reminded me to dust it off somewhat.

... such DIJ as I've been subjected to has struck me as distinctly average, so I don't have too much of a problem with not being best impressed with their attachment to themes of a National Socialist persuasion.

Not that musical wossname should be used as an excuse for same, of course. Although it's not like a couple of pop-songs are going to turn me into a fascist...

The thing is, I can't for the life of me understand why INDUSTRAIL(tm) and imagery of a Martial or Totalitarian Nature are so closely linked. Now, you can call me a spineless Guardian-reading pinko, but I tend to think that it's basically OK for, say, the band of the Coldstream Guards to march up and down in shiny uniforms to the strident beat of martial music; but when a mob of clueless children try it, they need a bloody good hiding and/or a series of illustrated lectures regarding the nature of a fascist or totalitarian society and the likely disposition of their chosen
subculture should such a terrible thing come to pass. (again)

[Hint: Newrocks won't do you any good in a work-camp, fucko]

I still don't understand why they do it. When I were a lad, it were all proper industrial round here, and it were perpetrated by people who lived in squats and believed in collective action and were about the complete antithesis of the uniforms-and-marching-about-brigade.

... And because at one stage the INDUSTRAIL(tm) Standard Video was full of blokes in gasmasks and crappy footage of Soviet military parades carefully cut so the squaddies seemed to be marching in time to the crappy drum-machine programming and shouted-substitute-for-singing. FLA, front and centre.

Maybe.

(And don't get me started on the sort of Cold Meat Industry bands who name themselves after terrorist/fascist organisations and use that kind of 'transgressive' malarkey to peddle popsongs. Ok, resolutely not popsongs, but I trust you get my general drift. It's as much about pissing off your parents as Marilyn Manson. Crunts.)

Comments

[reddragdiva]

IIRC it was originally talking about this stuff in the context of Burroughsian social control systems as something they found objectionable. And the cool uniforms, of course.

[gaius-octavian.livejournal.com]

Hmm, yes, I'm all for dressing up but there are some people I see in clubs whose uniforms are rather too good...

[hirez.livejournal.com]

Um... Yer wot?

I've found some references to Viennese Actionism. At least I think I have.

Hm. Interesting.

[reddragdiva]

"We are not the Gestapo, we just dig their cool uniforms" — xthlcm

[reddragdiva]

You know, the artistic point of Throbbing Gristle. All those American voice samples on Cabs records.

[hirez.livejournal.com]

Mm.

I'm not much of a one for Doing Politics, but that sort of thing really does make me very uncomfortable.

[reddragdiva]

I'm really quite annoyed that this factor makes Strength Through Joy too stupid by its name to go to, because I hear it's actually rather good.

[hirez.livejournal.com]

No. Absolutely not.

See, that's the point where I have a sense of humour failure.

[gaius-octavian.livejournal.com]

It's true that historically both fascists and communists knew a great deal about the semiotics of clothing/uniform design, and while it's perfectly conceivable that someone might independantly reach similar designs on purely aesthetic grounds, the use of authentic insignia is I think the giveaway. Is there a reason to appear in public wearing SS insignia for any other reason than to achieve notoriety-by-proxy? And is there a reason for such people not to get the shoeing that their idols so richly deserved by proxy?

[zotz]

Ah, Club Lebensraum. An excellent establishment, I hear.

[glitchdrei.livejournal.com]

Damn straight. But I also dislike it when people decide that I'm clearly mislead because I happen to actually like some music made by people with Fascist tendancies; just because I don't agree with some of their viewpoints doesn't mean that I have to restrict myself to listening only to music made by people who have exactly the same political beliefs as I do.

People who are so anti-Nazi that they try to deny that so much music exists are as just as bad as anyone who won't listen to music made by black people.

[operon.livejournal.com]

On the other hand...

My absolute favourite ever example of This Sort Of Thing was a guy at Torture Garden or somewhere once wearing what I think was a vintage Luftwaffe uniform -- with a love heart in the armband instead of a swastika. I had to go and shake him by the hand.

Andrew.

[siani-hedgehog.livejournal.com]

it's basically OK for, say, the band of the Coldstream Guards to march up and down in shiny uniforms to the strident beat of martial music; but when a mob of clueless children try it, they need a bloody good hiding and/or a series of illustrated lectures

and this is why Boys Brigade and Cadets give me the heebie jeebies.

wow. i can't see what i'm typing at all.
not sure about his view...

[operon.livejournal.com]

Still, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_Hitlerum for something to bear in mind.

Andrew.

[smogo.livejournal.com]

Yes. I met a bloke a few months ago who had turned up to the Dev in a German military uniform, and he talked about nothing except (a) how much he wants to buy a tank, and (b) what the best industrial songs are to "Seig Heil" to. What a fucking idiot.

By the way, why is the text so pale and tiny when I'm commenting on your journal? My eyes, my eyes!

[glitchdrei.livejournal.com]

I don't think it's a problem when someone dresses in a military outfit, it's the same as turning up somewhere dressed in "goth" or "punk" clothes. It makes me slightly uncomfortable to walk into a room and see someone with an international symbol of hate displayed on their arm, but as an apathetic pacifist I probably wouldn't give it too much thought or even particularly acknowledge it - it's as lame as black metallers carving upside-down crosses on themselves to deliberately upset Christians..

[gaius-octavian.livejournal.com]

I think I'd have no problem with someone wearing a swastika if they could make a convincing case that they'd have worn it even without the Third Reich ever having happened...

[siani-hedgehog.livejournal.com]

but the uniforms *are* nice. i think this is an interesting point. we all say we hate nazis, but it's important to remember that they can look appealing if you stop thinking.

[operon.livejournal.com]

I think you've hit the nail on the head; appropriating and subverting a style of dress is one thing but identification with a specific ideology for whatever reason means you have to be prepared for the fallout. Symbols are powerful things and not to be worn lightly.

Andrew.

[hirez.livejournal.com]

Quite. Listening to a couple of popsongs isn't going to make one a fascist.

I rather care for certain aspects of Futurism, for instance. I'm not about to beetle off and invade Abyssinia, but it has meant I've found out what fascism really is. (As opposed to the Rik-from-the-young-ones version.)

[hirez.livejournal.com]

Are there 'Dani Filth is a cunt' T-shirts yet?

[operon.livejournal.com]

I believe there is a club somewhere called the Living Room actually ;-)

Andrew.

[squiddity.livejournal.com]

The devil has all the best tailors?

[hirez.livejournal.com]

Oh, yes.

Fascist disco

[glitchdrei.livejournal.com]

It's in Brixton and they play bad '70s music on a Sunday!

Probably featuring DAF.